Couples and Integrating Assets into a Marriage

Kirby Rosplock
Welcome to the Tamarind Learning Podcast. I'm your host, Doctor Kirby Rosplock. And today we're talking about couples and integrating assets into marriage. And so I'm thrilled because today we have Ruschelle Khanna with us. She is a licensed social worker, but, boy, she's so much more. She is also trained in the Gottman Method of facilitation. She has deep knowledge of internal family systems therapy, conflict resolution, somatic therapy, art and play therapy, mediation, all these incredible things that are so important to families, families of wealth complex, enterprising families. And so we are so honored to have Rachelle with us today because she has so much great insight to the complexities of ultra high net worth individuals and families and couples. And so with that, Ruschelle, can you just tell us a little bit more about how you came to be doing the incredible work that you're doing with individuals, families, entrepreneurs, and business executives?

Ruschelle Khanna
Well, thank you so much for having me, Kirby. I'm very excited to have this conversation with you today. So how I got started, well, I graduated from Columbia, and I've been practicing for about 23 years now. So one of my first jobs out of Columbia was I was a live in therapist social worker for a billionaire who had come into sudden wealth, and his partner actually came from old money. And so I was called in to work with that family because of a number of different dynamics. And I worked with them for several years, and that was, I'm from West Virginia. I did not come from high net worth environment. So that was my kind of entry into how wealth really impacts individuals, especially sudden wealth. And through that, I got to see also a lot of dynamics just from marriages and what happens when we get married and money shifts a little bit in our world and our family. So that was kind of the beginning. And then I did a host of other things after that, but that really sparked my interest in staying with how money impacts us.

Kirby Rosplock
And today, we're talking about couples, and I think one of the most challenging times when individuals are getting together in that civil union is sort of figuring out how to have the money conversation. Right. Like, what are you bringing to this marriage beyond your love and adoration? But how do we bring that other baggage or that other component to our personal, individual lives and just the intersection of integrating assets with, you know, marriage? And, you know, I love your take on it, because you have some really incredible insights to the primary skills that might be missing. Like, what is it that the couples need to really think about when this happens?

Ruschelle Khanna
Yeah. So couples don't often think of money as this third kind of energy in their relationship. And it really, really is obviously this statistic that, you know, divorce because of money, there's a high rate of divorce because of money conflicts. So the number one skill that I see that couples lack, especially in the money conversation, but in other areas as well, is the ability to negotiate. And I think sometimes we forget that we can negotiate at home. A lot of times we spend the days negotiating at work or we're negotiating with other people in people who are running our homes or who's managing our homes. But as couples, we sometimes forget that negotiating is very, very important there as well.

Kirby Rosplock
So tell us why. I mean, I think about, you know, conversations with my spouse, and I just, how does this take shape? Can you give us an example? Maybe.

Ruschelle Khanna
Yeah. So when we're newly married, you know, asset integration, it is a power exchange. So we are, money is a, is a reflection of power in our relationships. And, for example, if one spouse has, has always had a lot of money and they marry someone who does not have money, as soon as you get married, there is obviously needs to be a discussion about how money is going to impact the power dynamics in your marriage. For example, you know, I've worked with couples who the wife kind of, I don't know if you saw the New York Times article a few years ago about wives getting salaries. You know, this works really, really well if that is the agreed upon arrangement. And what I always like to say is that a relationship is equal and anything outside of equal is, and I'm going to use a strong word, is abuse. So if we haven't come to equal terms, somebody's being taken advantage of, somebody is feeling above or below in some way. And for healthy marriages, we want to do everything that we can to remain in relationship and not in a power struggle.

Kirby Rosplock
So this practice of negotiation is really trying to level the playing field.

Ruschelle Khanna
Yeah. And we're doing it constantly. We have these unspoken agreements that we're living by in our relationships all the time. And a lot of times couples come to counseling or coaching, and they actually have to start unpacking that and actually labeling. Well, what are the unconscious agreements that we have? For example, a common thing would be a husband gets angry because his wife spent $10,000 last month on clothes. Well, why was there not a discussion about what's the budget for clothing that it all just kind of comes back to, let's just have an agreement about what's fair. Where is that money coming from? Is it all your money? Do I have a say in whether or not you can spend it anyway. And what is the limit? What feels comfortable? Can I spend $1,000 without asking you, without telling you, without having a discussion? So oftentimes I'll have couples kind of start setting limits together so that they know what, there's no surprises.

Kirby Rosplock
Yeah. And I would imagine, boy, in the last several years, we've seen incredible inflation. So everything feels like it costs more and you get less. Right. So there's a good chance that people's spending is increasing in a correlation to what we see with inflation and rising cost of living. So how do we have those kinds of conversations to right size and say, well, no, actually, the grocery bill might have been like $200 last year, but now it's like three or $400 just because the things that you really like cost more. And I'm not spending necessarily more, it's just the costs of things have gone up.

Ruschelle Khanna
Right, Kirby? That's a really good point, actually. Yeah, that's a really good point. And a lot of times, women who are running households, there is a real disconnect a lot of times between men outside of the home and women in the home, and kind of what the, what the men are expecting and understanding. And really that can usually just be resolved by actually sitting down and having a conversation and taking a look at those things.

Kirby Rosplock
Yeah. And I know one thing that I'd love to get into a little bit, too, is just that gender and wealth has so much to do with maybe those power dynamics. And you know, what happens if you're female more with money than the male and just how that also, gender has some basis. Right, sometimes to how these asset integrations, how they work or don't work. Right?

Ruschelle Khanna
Yes. So if you are more female with money, and again, I appreciate you bringing up gender as it doesn't necessarily have to be the gender that you are.

Kirby Rosplock Yes.

Ruschelle Khanna
But it could be kind of the energetic attitude that you have toward money. You know, women have a harder time. They're a little bit more fearful of looking at money and rewire for wealth. I don't know if you're familiar with that book. That is a great book and money a love story. You know, those are two really good books that kind of help unpack girls and women being set up to not have to take responsibility for their money or to feel scared to take responsibility in some way. And then, and that, of course, plays into the power dynamics. The other big one that I want to mention is if we're using money to fill emotional pulls Brad Klontz calls this the status. This is the money status issue in the money scripts. You know, a lot of times we're buying things or we're feeling like we need certain things so that we can have a sense of security. And that can. That can range from, you know, I have to stay at the nicest hotels to, you know, I have to have the very nicest of everything. I have to try to keep up with people in order to have words. And a lot of times that comes up for women. Not that it doesn't come up for men, but it's more feminine. I see it more as a feminine issue that, you know, your worth cannot be bought. And if that is the case, let's maybe slow that down and take a look at it.

Kirby Rosplock
So, kind of going back to this integration of assets and this practicing negotiating, if I'm a new couple, what does that look like? How would I begin that practice to start a conversation when maybe I've never even thought about my own personal views? Tell us where you would start.

Ruschelle Khanna
Yeah. So it is a values-based conversation to start. And a lot of times new couples are very interested in, they don't know it, but until when we get into the conversation, they know it. They're actually really interested in values exploration because they want their kids, they will eventually want their kids to share those values as well if they're going to have children or they want their money to go to a values-based something that they value after their lifetime. So starting with values, and then once we have our values, that sets our standards, and when we have standards, that means that we have to have boundaries around those standards. So the negotiating conversation always defines our values and then becomes clear on our boundaries. This is what I can and cannot accept from you in our relationship. So that with regard to money.

Kirby Rosplock
Yeah, yeah. So that's probably something. Do you do that individually first with each member in a relationship, or do you facilitate that between the three of you? How does that work?

Ruschelle Khanna
Yeah. So you can do it with both couples therapy done with one person, or couples mediation done with one person is very effective. It's very, very effective. And what I always say is people really underestimate that when they make a little change, their whole family kind of changes. And that's really amazing. You know, the whole. The whole family doesn't have to come to mediation. Sometimes it just takes one person to start looking at things. But I actually really love doing these values-based explorations with both the couples there. They'll do stuff on their own. And then they'll come back together. I just had a couple that we did money histories. So what was money like in your home? What did you learn about money growing up? And I had both of them kind of do that individually. And it's so amazing because when most of the time, this is what happens. I don't prompt the couples beyond, just write down what you remember from childhood money. And then, you know, a lot of times they'll share their story. And even though the details are completely different, they've had the same wounds around money. They've had the same kind of just these themes are the same, but they've been presented different in their family history. And that I call. I call that the trauma bond. Trauma bonds have a slightly different definition and different contexts. But, you know, we are married to people because we have all these wonderful bonds with them, these positive, loving bonds. And then unconsciously, most of the time, we also have these wounds. And a lot of times they do revolve around money.

Kirby Rosplock
So maybe let's give an example. I mean, I can imagine if you grew up and money was tight and your parents were working a lot of jobs and you felt maybe neglected at times because they're just working to keep the house running, hopefully, you in school, their cars gassed up. So what are some of the other kinds of traumas that you've seen that really impact relationships?

Ruschelle Khanna
Yeah. So money as a weapon. That is one. Of course, the trauma of poverty is that, you know, that is generational. But yes, money as a power and leverage in families is very, very harmful and a very toxic dynamic. Also, family histories of when money has been acquired through horrible things. So if granddad had slaves or so, you know, that generational trauma is definitely present to the third generation, if not more. But it's not obvious. But the great-grandchild may have. May hate money, they may have a lot of money, and they absolutely despise it and they want nothing to do with it.

Kirby Rosplock
I can totally hear you. I know there's a family many years ago I worked with whose wealth originated in the timber industry. And fast forward six, seven generations later, a big contingent of the family were buddhist. So for them, their wealth history, that origin of that wealth, felt extraordinarily crucifying to their spirituality. That the fact that here we do no harm and here we live a life in respect and honor of all living things. And then to think we murdered millions of trees. Right? So again, I can imagine it could be a trauma that you don't even necessarily live, right?

Ruschelle Khanna
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And that, you know, that is, that's what the book that I'm writing is about, is about how you can, in your lifetime, have a lot of anxiety over something possibly related to money. And you may have, it may have nothing to do with you. You know, the book on generational trauma by Mark Wolynn called, It Didn't Start With You. And that, that is the only way to say that, that sometimes we have these burdens that are just not ours.

Kirby Rosplock

Yeah.

Ruschelle Khanna
And we bring those into our marriage. Yeah.

Kirby Rosplock
Well, I think this is so powerful because, again, people might be just thinking about, like, do we agree on our household budget or do we agree on, like, status things like what kind of cars we're going to drive or what neighborhoods we're going to live in and what schools do our kids attend. But I think what I'm hearing from you is that this integration of assets is actually a deeper inquiry into your past to understand your present, maybe money hang ups and where you get stuck. Because if you get stuck with it, it's going to merge into your marriage and it's going to potentially create roadblocks or obstacles as a couple that you may not even know is going to manifest. Right?

Ruschelle Khanna
Yes. And one of the interviews that I do for my book, one of the first gentlemen that I talked to, he's actually a genealogist and has done a lot of his own personal searching and healing around money traumas and other traumas. And he brought up this idea of, if you, let's say you have, you don't want to pay your taxes, which was the example that he gave. You have a fear or a repulsion or, like, it's like, I don't know why, but I just don't want to do that. It's just. And then people don't do it, and then they get in trouble with the IRS. That fear, in his case, was actually something that started with his great grandfather not paying his taxes that he didn't even know about until later in life. And you kind of, we have these feelings or sensations sometimes around money, and we're like, I don't know why I don't want to do that, or I don't know why I'm compelled to buy the things that I buy. And so slowing down some of those conversations together as a couple or even individually can be really, really interesting and also freeing.

Ruschelle Khanna
I mean, that's the whole point of this, right? We want our money to help us feel free.

Kirby Rosplock
So I know I'm going a little off script here. But let's just talk about when couples are now turning into families and where these, you know, this asset integration and these views on, like, yes, of course, we buy our child a new or used car when they're 16 or, no, they've got to earn it themselves. And why not having, like, a good integration of your money scripts as couples can really blow up when we start having children. And now we see boy, boy, mom treats money this way, dad treats money this way, or my two dads or my two moms don't have the same alignment. Talk to us about how you see families successfully integrate into that family life.

Ruschelle Khanna
So even when children are very young, we should be thinking about family governance, because what is the culture of your family? And that's not always, you know, there will be disagreements in that. The whole premise of the Gottman research is that we are going to disagree. It's just how well are we going to disagree. But family governance is so important because it keeps ritual together. You know, like James Hughes in Family Wealth, right. He speaks a lot about ritual and that continuity. And these are our values. And that starts with mom and dad, or mom and mom, dad and dad, right. That starts with. That's where the values start. So I actually have, I use family governance even in all socioeconomic status, all work that I do. Family governance is important for every family. And of course, you know, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Kirby Rosplock
No, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I'd love to hear more about, like, how you see this coming to fruition and how family governance can help even the small nuclear family, not just the second, third, fourth, and, you know, expanded generations.

Ruschelle Khanna
So one of the things that I start with and I love to do is the family manifesto. And that may change as so, you know, when baby's very young and not participating in developing a family manifesto. And I'll explain that what that is in a minute, that it kind of changes and shifts as our children grow. And basically what we just do together is we are a family that, and then the family fills out. What are we? We're a family that fights well, we're a family that loves each other. We're a family that values the forest. So they'll just come up with, this is the family manifesto. And then when the children are old enough, like eight, nine to participate in those values, then that's the direction that we're going. So we try to think very big so that parents don't have to make up a bunch of rules and a bunch of restrictions. If we have these big guidelines as to how we act as a family.

Kirby Rosplock
But what I also love about this concept is that it creates a sense of awareness and an awareness creates a sense of accountability that like all of my actions, what I do as a spouse, as a mother, as a father has a consequence and an inverse impact to, you know, it's that ripple effect. Right. To my children, potentially their grandchildren, potentially their children. So, you know, we think about the power of why the couple starting off at the beginning is setting in motion this bigger impact presence beyond generations. And I love this idea that even starting with the intention at the nuclear family can have such powerful impact beyond. I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about some of the challenges. Why don't more individuals, and couples take the first step down this path? What do you see regarding to their money?

Ruschelle Khanna
Well, this is also, this is the problem that my book is trying to solve. You know, succession planning has a denial problem, and that denial problem starts before we're married. So if you don't want to look at, if we think about succession planning, we're as. Cindy Arledge is a consultant. She helps people with succession planning. And her whole, the books that she wrote and her whole philosophy is you're afraid of death, right? You're afraid of death. That's it. You don't want to talk about the thing that is inevitable. So if we go all the way back to the very beginning and we look as individuals and couples and start thinking about the very big picture and just start to have a little bit of awareness of what might it look a generation from now? Why would you even care what your grandchildren are doing? Why does that even matter in your lifetime? And maybe before you have kids, you're not even remotely thinking about that. Or maybe you are, but how do we spark awareness in people to pay attention that what they do echoes forever? That's a hard question to answer. And the only thing that I have come up with so far is that we keep having conversations about it and we keep remembering how important we are and our experiences are and how important your money is.

Ruschelle Khanna

You know, if you're someone who's struggling with, I don't want my inheritance. I mean, I don't know about you, but I actually have a lot of, I've had several clients who don't want anything to do with their inheritance. And what an in. You have the right to give up your inheritance. If you don't want it, that's completely fine, you know, but you also might be missing out on what I, I have a framework called the Echo Legacy Framework. And the H is about honoring resources. And the Ois about openness to receive, you know, is giving away all of your money, honoring your resources the best you can, and are you really open to receiving all the good things that. That those resources could do for you as well? So, awareness, Kirby, you know, I've meditated for 30 years. You're aware of that because we've talked about it earlier. And awareness is such a tricky thing. You know, this kind of work requires that you wake up to your life. Paying attention to your money means waking up to your life fully.

Kirby Rosplock
Yeah, I think that's so powerful and so spot on. And that recognizing that even a day ago, a week ago, a month ago, a year ago, you are not in the same place that you are in this moment. So, you know, why is it a practice, right? Like, this isn't. This is work that kind of never gets done. Just like brushing your teeth. Right? You never just do it once. And you're like, oh, I'm good. My teeth are good forever. But there's a continual need to get better work on it, make it a practice. And I love how this comes back to couples because, you know. Yeah, the divorce rates, and I know we weren't going to go here, but divorce rates are staggering. And there's. It's so fearful when you start to look at how many marriages end in divorce, you know, about half, so, or more than half. So why is it so important to maybe head off that, you know, the money side of it or the, you know, I've had the horrible experience of going through a postnup, and I often tell people like, oh, do a prenup, because a postnup is monetizing your children, your marriage, your life.

Kirby Rosplock
And it's horrible. You're envisioning the end. But I can imagine the power of really digging into, how do I think about money? What does it mean to me? How do I want to come to this marriage, this new person I'm marrying with this open mind, open heart, but also an intention of what we're co creating, right?

Ruschelle Khanna
Yes. Yes. What I find most sad, I guess, about the divorce rate, Kirby, is that most people that I've worked with, couples that were near divorce, most of their problems were solvable problems, as the Gottmans would call it. They really are solvable problems. And a lot of couples come, they're like, we can't be helped, can we? And most of the time, they are solvable problems. If they would just slow down and be in a room with each other and talk through those things. So that's one part that I love to tell people is that if you think that your marriage is over, just have a conversation with a mediator, because it could completely and totally change the trajectory of what's happening.

Kirby Rosplock
Well, that's hopeful. And I think that's a really important, you know, recommendation to push pause, right. That we don't have to rush into the divorce proceedings and papers just because something, you know, is kind of a miss or awry. But, you know, at the end of the day, you know, just coming back to this, this couples, can you give us some suggestions or recommendations of if I'm a new couple and I feel like I'm angst, I don't want to do this work. I feel like I don't know how to have this conversation. Where would you recommend individuals starting to bring this present to make this a part of the union, you know, so that we don't get five years down the road and realize, boy, we're not compatible. Like, ugh, I don't really like how you manipulate people with money. Use it as a weapon, whatever it is. How can you start to suss this out early on?

Ruschelle Khanna
Yeah. So if there's anything that you are averse to, like, just take a second, and if there's anything that you absolutely don't want to talk about or do in your life, possibly just have a conversation with someone about why you don't even have to have a conversation about the thing. But why is there such an aversion to this? That's it. Just start with being curious. I used to have a sign in my office that said, be curious, because if I ever got stuck, I could only see it. So if I ever got stuck with someone, I would just look at the sign and it would redirect me back just to, you know, why was that? Why is that so difficult for you to look at?

Kirby Rosplock
Yeah, well, I think that's a great super illumination on something that might seem obvious, but at the same time, you know, we avoid things that scare us. We avoid things that might connote our immortality. We avoid things that connect to past trauma. All of these things are things you brought up in this podcast that I think are super relevant to why money conversations never get old and why it's so important to build that muscle so that couples can really productively challenge each other on, like, why do you think we need to have this next bigger home or this next grader, whatever? Or why we're putting so much pressure on our children to get into the most expensive Ivy League school they can. I mean, so what is enough is, I think, another sort of interesting conversation that a lot of couples might want to have when it comes to how much do we give, how much do we endow, how much do we wear money, have a lot of wealth externally versus keeping things quiet. And I think these are all part of those conversations that people stumble into the answers sometimes, or they do.

Kirby Rosplock
They avoid them, but then they build resentment or fear or anxiety about it.

Ruschelle Khanna
Yes. Yes. And so discernment, I guess, is another word that I would leave with you because all of those decisions are very. There isn't one. You cannot go to an advisor and have them tell you what to do with your money. You. You can't. You have to have discernment about what's best for your specific child, your specific spouse.

Kirby Rosplock
Yeah. It's so powerful. Ruschelle, just want to learn a little bit more about this book you're writing. Do you have a title? Do you have a timeline when it might be out for us?

Ruschelle Khanna
It's called Inherited Trauma and Family Wealth. So, yes. So. And it should be out later this year. Yeah. And I'm really, really excited. I have some amazing interviews and some examples, some, you know, my own clinical practice is in there as well, and then it lays out the echo legacy framework and kind of how I work with families in mediation and coaching to just put some structure into these very difficult decisions.

Kirby Rosplock
Awesome. Ruschelle, thank you so much for being with us today. Super interesting conversation about couples and integrating assets and the power of money on relationships. So I just want to thank you for sharing your wisdom, your time, your energy, your spirit. And I'm just super excited to get a hold of that copy of your new book when it comes out. I'm sure we'll be talking to you more about it. So thank you again for being here on the Tamarind Learning podcast today.

Ruschelle Khanna

Awesome. Thank you, Kirby.