Breaking the Cycle: Advisors, Codependency, and Addiction in Family Systems with Jane Mintz

Jane Eigner Mintz, MA, LPC, is the CEO and Chief Clinical Strategist of her international consultancy, Jane Mintz Consultancy and Realife Intervention Solutions, LLC. Jane offers strategic direction to individuals and families grappling with addiction, mental health, and life concerns. Jane is a veteran treatment provider and thought leader in the addiction and behavioral health industries. She is the author of The Field Model of Intervention, the first clinical intervention model now used by practitioners and organizations across the United States and the United Kingdom. While best known for her work as a concierge strategist

guiding clinically complex individuals and their families through crisis, Jane is also a noted industry consultant, educator, and speaker who has garnered international recognition. Jane's personal experience with addiction and recovery grounds all that she does.

 Jane is a Licensed Professional Counselor with multiple dimension training credentials in high-acuity clinical clients. She graduated from Laurel School (Cleveland, OH) and holds degrees from Washington University (St. Louis, MO.) and John Carroll University (Cleveland, OH).

Kirby Rosplock

Welcome to the Tamarind Learning podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kirby Rosplock, and today we have a very special guest. Today, we have Jane Mintz. She is the CEO and Chief Clinical Strategist of her international consultancy, the Jane Mintz Consultancy and Real-Life Intervention Solutions. And Jane is a very special person because she helps people at their worst moments. And that's probably when you're suffering from addiction. And it's a hard, terrible place to be, but there's so many of us who know someone who struggled with it. Maybe you've struggled with it yourself. But we're coming at this addiction conversation from a really nuanced place today because we're thinking about it from the place of the advisor's point of view. So what happens if you are an advisor who has gotten engaged with a client who is actually struggling with addiction? And the reason we want to talk about addiction from the advisor perspective today is because it is really troubling and terrifying if you are faced with, how do you react? How do you start to deal with this system? And what is your role? What are you supposed to do? And when are you supposed to call the genes of the world so that you don't find that you become a professional codependent, right?

Kirby Rosplock

And the trap of becoming that codependent. So Jane, welcome, and we are so glad to have you here today.

Jane Mintz

And I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Kirby Rosplock

So we gotta understand, Jane, how did you find yourself to come to this work? Because I'm sure there's a story behind this.

Jane Mintz

With anybody in this field, there are big stories. But I was a very high functioning alcoholic for most of my young life, and I achieved many great things. One of them was that I was in the LPGA and as a high performing player and teacher. And the thing about addiction to mental health is that you can't outrun it. So it ran me down, put me face first in the dirt, and the resurrection of my life came through recovery, personal work, helping others, being of service to others. And so after I crashed and burned in 2000, I went to treatment. That was a life-saving thing for me to do. And then out of the ashes, I love the visual and the metaphor of the Phoenix rising. I think it's so important for people to understand, because there's so much shame around having a problem, is that having a problem and dealing with it actually allows you to rise in a more powerful way. The burning down of old ways and old patterns and old hurts and injustices and all the things that really do fuel addiction, resentments, really need to be course-corrected, understood, reinstalled in a way where you can rise powerfully to serve those that are still sick and suffering.

Jane Mintz

And that's actually my story. So I have been chipping away at this and building my practice over 24 years. I really now work with a very small slice of my particular practice is in working particularly with advisors, fiduciaries, and high net-worth clients. My approach is head of the snake. I really believe in that, and that's where my expertise lands. That's how my personal and professional lives came together. And here I am, and I am so proud of what I've built. I have to just be frank about that because my network has saved so many people, and it's not about me. It's about the people that I've chosen to surround myself with, including crackerjack advisors. My networks include medical doctors, neuropsychologists, psychiatrists, clinical coaches, and you name it. So that's where I feel that I can be most effective in the And voila, here we are today.

Kirby Rosplock

Incredible. I can imagine that there are many advisors who count their blessings that you are in their rolodex and that you are the first point of contact when they find that they have a client that they suspect might have a serious problem. But let's walk it back for a minute. If I'm an advisor, maybe I have a new client, a meeting them for the first or second or third time. I'm starting to get to know them. It's discovery. I'm a new fiduciary maybe on this client. I think something is off. I have my spidey sense on. It's starting to become clear that there's a problem here. I'm feeling like I am now party to some codependence in this web. Oftentimes, these families have a a very intricate web of relationships. No one wants to rock the boat. Everyone wants to keep the status quo. We don't want to upset the apple cart with the matriarch or the patriarch. They dry the agenda. We got to keep everything status quo. I mean, how would that fiduciary want to break that chain? I mean, how would you come in and break that chain? How would they even want to reach out to you?

Kirby Rosplock

How, how does that happen?

Jane Mintz

Well, you nailed it. It starts with the spidey senses. There's not a person in this world that doesn't know when something's off. It's their choice to ignore it or validate it or go along to get along, sweep it under the rug, grab the deal, and move forward. It used to be that fiduciaries were pretty clear on what was their job and what wasn't their job. Well, today, everything is everybody's job because we're in such a serious, really global crisis of people that aren't doing well. And most of addiction is a progressive illness. Most of mental illness is progressive if it's not treated. So to circle back to your point, likely at the entry point of cases, an advisor will be able to understand, as you said within two or three sessions, the scope of the family dysfunction, if there is. It rarely is there a clear cut. We'd like a succession and an estate plan. Let's knuckle down. But you can't do it with people or even generations of people. Because I work with G1s through G3s and even G4s. The generational impact on that succession plan has got to be enacted by healthy people that can come to consensus and move forward.

Jane Mintz

That is typically not the case when you have an individual or many individuals that have addiction and mental health problems. They typically go hand in hand. Here, we have a new fiduciary or a very seasoned fiduciary that has to probably get into the case a little bit more. I think building rapport is essential. I think that nothing can be said or done unless you have concrete examples as to why we're at an impasse in terms of coming up with a solid product. The trick to being a code cracker, which is what I really consider myself to be a clinical code cracker, is to find the correct entry point. So that is a very good time for an advisor to call me and say, 'Hey, Jane, this is what I've got.' And this happens every single day in my office. My advisors that refer to me have become family and friends, and the camaraderie involved with cross-pollinating two completely different industries to serve families is really getting to be one of the most impactful things that I do. So it's the entry point. I'm sorry to just drone on. That's the work that the advisor and I do.

Jane Mintz

Once the advisor is lit up with ideas on how to approach a client, it's usually an invitation to just talk to me about what is going on. There's no commitment. Maybe it's a small assessment, initial assessment. But once I talk to families, everything changes. I think that that's the trick, is not to try to take on my role, but to identify problemed clients, and then the advisor and I working together to find the right entry point. And it may be, and what I do find is that for more senior advisors, they tend to get sucked into the stories. And that's the how close is too close. That's where professional codependency can come in. Because in not wanting to rock the boat, in not knowing what to say, typically nothing is done. The clients are getting sicker, and the fiduciary, the advisor becomes in a role that's completely out of scope with what they have been trained to do. And it's a holy crap moment of, I'm in over my head, and what do I do? Again, another reason to call me. The trick, again, is alignment, it's timing, it's pacing, a timing, and entry point.

Jane Mintz

So the more I understand about this family as a clinical strategist, that's the strategist component of what I do, is to figure out the right entry point and then build out a plan that not only has short term gain, but that has a long term play factor that's ultimately going to get individuals and family systems better. Okay, I'll stop. I know that was a lot.

Kirby Rosplock

No, I mean, it's fascinating. It's such a complicated subject because let's face it, addiction is usually perpetuated across generations, right?

Jane Mintz

Yes. The ability to sweep it under the carpet. So again, If it's not taken care of in the first generation, it's going to trickle to the second. Typically, Gen 2 and Gen 3 have the most problems. It's not Gen 1. It's not the originators of the money, it's the successors that end up really hobbled and crippled and tortured with purpose and meaning problems of where do I fit into this structure? Where is my own credibility? Where have I built out my self? And if there's no room for that in a family system, it becomes a money grab. Okay, well, it gets very complicated. And with every generation that does not solve those problems, it trickles down to the next one, and we have epic problems. So my work is focused on a family system. It starts with the individual that's in crisis. Then typically, I'm retained by those families, those very large family systems, to work through the family to figure out how to course-correct some of these problems. That's the joy of the work for me, not the one-hit wonders, but the family systems work. When you're working with high-net families, it's typically not one person, it's many people.

Jane Mintz

That's why, particularly I only take one or two cases a month. Other than that, it's... But I have lots of resources, so.

Kirby Rosplock

I think that's a really important thing to understand is the complicated element to this is that it's not as if it's one piece. There's so many different factors that are coming into play. You might have systemic addiction issues is generation to generation. And then you also have the complicating factor, because I also think about the fiduciary as a gatekeeper. So there might be all kinds of messaging and relationship issues that get compounded by just the nature of that relationship to the individual, be it the patriarch, matriarch, or maybe it's a beneficiary, or a successive beneficiary, or related to. So I can imagine that role is very loaded potentially to whoever the party is, right?

Jane Mintz

Right. And part of that work is really prepping the case through deep conversation with the advisor. Tell me from your perspective how this family functions. What do you see in this family? What are the dynamics? Who really is the issue? Because there's always going to be one person that's a barometer for the family system. We call those the identified patients, things of that nature, whether you like the language or not. But there's someone that we usually have to focus on first that really could be in life-threatening crisis, or we're trying to head that off. And crisis is when people call. What I would like to see is before the crisis hits, let's put in remediative plans. But interestingly, people aren't willing to do much until the proverbial poop hits the fan. And now it's like, oh, now we get it. We have to do something. But that's my practice. The strategy part of the work is in exactly what you spoke a few sentences ago is understand the entire scope, strategize about who, what, where, when, and how, and then figure out how to get the family drawn into a conversation with me, because that's when the case takes off, is if they're willing to talk to me and they can feel comfortable with me, which at this stage of the game, a lot of people do.

Jane Mintz

I'm a straight talker, straight I'm a great shooter. I'm compassionate, but I am not codependent. So I'm not going to over align with the family in their problems. That's where I lose my power, and I think a lot of advisors lose their power. If you become acculturated, if you become sucked into the family system, you no longer have that independent lens and you become a codependent feature function of that family. It's so important for all of us that are in advisory modes to be able to stay outside of the bubble of crisis and to be able to speak truth to the situation. And whether it's upsetting to somebody or not is not the issue, because of course, it's going to be upsetting. These are secrets that have been protected for generations. These are communication styles that are maladaptive, that they think that are somewhat functional. They're not. So when I say to a patriarch or a matriarch, I think we can do better, would you be open to talking about how that might happen? They always say yes because they know at this point, the genie is out of the bottle. The fiduciary has caught on, the advisor has caught on, and now is recommending a larger conversation with somebody that lives in that scope, and that this is the value of the advisor to bring in equally powerful advisors to be in a think tank with the family.

Jane Mintz

And that is a winner. It is a winner. And it's, Kirby, it's you and me. And the family, and you bringing me in, is a big feather in your cap. I mean, that's when we all become believable is when we say, you know what? I'm a little bit outside my scope. I'd like to bring in a colleague to fill in the color of what we can do to support this heartache, this broken dream, this inability, this bypass, whatever it is. So it's the relationship between you and me that starts that relationship with the family. That's why it's so important to just pick up the phone and say, 'Hey, Jane, can I get a half an hour? Can you spare 50?' The answer is, Of course. And when? So that's the engagement that it just tickles me. And we really do. It's really a miracle for everyone in the process to be a part of the solution.

Kirby Rosplock

So it sounds like this really works well when there is an outed addict, excuse me. When we know that someone who's really hit rock bottom. And when we don't have confirmation by the party or by the family system that this person is truly an addict and has a problem, what do we do in those situations when there's a suspected addiction? How do you treat those situations and how do you help those advisors get confirmation? What do you do in those situations?

Jane Mintz

Well, I think that there's a part to waiting this out to let time show us the path. With those, I think you have to wait for the patterns to start. And usually there is a pattern and that can be identified because people don't change patterns unless they have to. So that would again be a really good reason to call and say, I don't think we're at a tipping point yet, but here's the landscape. What do you think? I do have relationships with some fiduciaries with the bigger multifamily offices, some single family offices with enormous family systems that I'm engaged with on a consulting basis. I'm on a retainer for them to just do those inquiries. For the bigger houses, there's a lot of them. So that's one way. But really, it's a case-by-case thing. I'll tell you, the advisors that I've met have become part of my network.

Kirby Rosplock

Sure.

Jane Mintz

It's just a wonderful relationship. I think it's a relief for both of us to know that we have each other. Sure. And we're equally as valuable in these situations. I don't know if that helped.

Kirby Rosplock

No, it's super helpful. If there were one or two takeaways for advisors so they could not become professional codependents to a client who had an addiction, what would be the things that you would tell them to put on their big girl or boy pants to hold their power and to support these families and individuals? What would be the guidance or what would be a couple of suggestions that you would provide them?

Jane Mintz

Well, many people are prone to codependency. Nobody wants other people to suffer. And so we become hero rescuers. And if that's part of your pattern as a human being, it's going to show up in your work. Look at the quality of relationships that you have with people. Look for tendencies to want to avoid conflict, to smooth things over, to be a soft pillow for people to land on, to avoid difficult conversations, to want to soften hard stuff, none of that really helps the other person. When we get into those modes, we end up validating that behavior because we're not addressing it. So first, check in with yourself. Take a long look in the mirror. And many people have therapists. It's wonderful to bring that up with a therapist and say, I need to check in with you on this topic of codependency. Do I have some of these qualities and what are some things that I can do? So I would take it down to the studs and do your own work first. Not anybody that's in the industry, which is a terrible word, but in the behavioral health field that doesn't do their own work.

Jane Mintz

If they don't, they become dangerous. Dangerous. And it's the same thing with the financial advisors. So that's the first thing. The second thing is if you really want to talk about it and the impact you're having on that case, call me. I want to be a partner very much to advisors and people that impact large family systems. That's what I'm here for. So it's the totality of it. And I love to talk about this stuff. So it's not an imposition. Bring these things to the fore, and let's just openly, honestly talk about it, because this is not a malicious thing. This is not things that people are doing. But if you're not aware, or worse yet, if you are aware and don't care about the impact that you have, then, boy, oh, boy, you need to check yourself at the door. Sorry, there's nothing more to say about that. And nobody's really looking to hurt anybody, but by not, kind of, checking yourself at the door, open, honest personal work is essential. And that's, I think another thing of value that we can add is more opportunities for people to learn about what can you do therapeutically.

Jane Mintz

What are the underpinnings of codependency? It's huge.

Kirby Rosplock

It is huge.

Jane Mintz

There's so many good books, and I know that people don't particularly read. They typically podcast and listen to books on tape and whatnot. But at some point, I think there's going to be a lot of information out there, and there already is. But when you look at this market and this definite need to cross-pollinate, what we're doing is to join. It's really imperative narrative that if you're working with complex family systems in any capacity, that you work in a team-based way.

Kirby Rosplock

Yeah. Awesome. Jane Mince, you are super enlightening. This has been fascinating. I'm so excited to learn more from you, and I'm so appreciative of all the wisdom you shared. If you have a client that is struggling with addiction, I think you've just found the right resource to call. Jane Mince is with, obviously, her firm, Jane Mintz Consultancy and Real-Life Intervention Solutions. You can find more about her on the link to her website after this podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Tamarind Learning podcast. This is Dr. Kirby Rosplock signing off. Thanks again, Jane Mintz, for being with us today. You were wonderful.

Jane Mintz

Thank you, Kirby. Keep doing the good work.

Kirby Rosplock

Thanks.