Raising Grounded Kids in a World of Wealth: A Conversation with Jeff Savlov
Jeff Savlov
Contact Information:
jsavlov@blumandsavlov.com
Jeff Savlov is founder of Blum & Savlov, LLP - Family Business & Wealth Consulting and consults to family businesses, high net-worth families, family offices and their advisors with a focus on balancing family dynamics with ownership and management of shared assets across generations. Jeff’s specialty is working with families that want their wealth to serve current and future generations in healthy and productive ways and he loves coaching parents on raising children in a family business/wealth context to harness potential and avoid common, painful pitfalls. He speaks in the U.S. and internationally, has been quoted in the NY Times, Family Business Magazine, and authors a popular blog - “The Family Business Minute.”
He brings more than 25 years of unique experience in sales and marketing, business ownership, entrepreneurial endeavors and family dynamics training, along with a common sense style, to his consulting work with families. By integrating his diverse business background, extensive academic work and family dynamics/psychological training with his experience working in his family’s commercial printing business, Jeff helps enterprising families to balance family dynamics and business so both will thrive for many generations.
Having participated in his family’s business, Jeff understands first-hand the challenges of balancing the interplay between family and business and the devastation that can befall an otherwise healthy business when this balance is not proactively managed. In the business Jeff’s family owned, a consultant was brought in to work with the family, facilitated a successful reorganization of the business and helped rebuild family relationships. This is one of the primary experiences which motivated Jeff’s career in family business/family wealth consulting.
Jeff holds a Master of Social Work degree from Rutgers University with specializations in group dynamics and family systems theory and has a post-graduate certification from the Institute for Psychoanalysis and Psychotherapy of New Jersey (now the Center for Psychoanalysis and Psychotherapy of NJ) where he is a member of the faculty. He earned an Advanced Certificate in Family Business Advising and Fellow status from the Family Firm Institute (FFI), Boston, MA. In addition, he has consulted with Fortune 500 companies such as Bristol-Myers Squibb, Johnson & Johnson and Schering Plough. He also devotes a portion of his time to performance enhancement with corporate executives and elite high school athletes.
Through membership in the Family Firm Institute, an international organization comprised of family business and family wealth advisors, consultants, educators and researchers, and the Purposeful Planning Institute, Jeff has access to the latest trends, developments, best practices and research in family business and family wealth consulting. Jeff is the founder of the Princeton Family Business Consultants Group - an interdisciplinary group of professionals serving enterprising families across the U.S. and convening to develop best practices.
Jeff lives in New Jersey with his wife and two children. He coaches youth sports and makes time for his lifelong passion – ice hockey. Jeff approaches his life and work with creativity and a sense of humor.
Kirby Rosplock
Welcome to the Tamarind Learning podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kirby Rosplock. Today, we have an extraordinarily special guest. Jeff is a rock star, and he is a specialist in many different ways. But Jeff Savlov is here to talk to us about one area that is important to many parents out there, because we're talking about something that is near and dear to my heart, because we're talking about what it means to be raising children, to be responsible around money, and to be good little young people growing up in this world. Now, let's Let me tell you a little bit about Jeff. He's the founder of Blum & Savlov LLP. It's a family enterprise consultancy. He helps families with significant wealth and ensures that their resources serve current and future generations in healthy, productive ways. Jeff works with business owning families, legacy wealth families who co-manage complex assets, even couples planning for children. Because as he puts it, the younger the kids, the better. When it comes to intentional parenting, his expertise spans intentional parenting, family team building, customized governance, multi-generational meeting, facilitation, and advisor collaboration.
Kirby Rosplock
His skills, he's honed them through decades of retreats, workshops, keynote speaking. I mean, you name it. Jeff has done it, and he comes from an enterprising family himself. So he spent time in the trenches with his family and the business pursuing a career in sales and marketing separate from his family. And then he trained as a family therapist and certified psychoanalyst. So Jeff, wow. So glad to have you here on the Tamarind Learning podcast.
Jeff Savlov
Thanks for having me. That is such a self-esteem boost of an intro. Thank you. I'm like flying high now. That feels good.
Kirby Rosplock
Well, you have done so much in your career, and you serve so many families. But this topic is so, I tell you, it's so prevalent, and so many families are really wanting to get help when it comes to raising productive and strong kids, right? That just know how to be good people growing up and being responsible and motivated and grounded. But it sounds like it shouldn't be that difficult, but why is it so hard from the beginning? When does it even start? When do you even need to start thinking about this?
Jeff Savlov
I think it's difficult, certainly when you start with middle school-age kids or teenage kids. It's really not difficult at all when you really start young. One, two, three years old. I think a lot of the families that are struggling, as you put it with, or are interested in how to do this and do this intentional parenting well, they're starting later because they're not aware of how simple and powerful it is to start early. You could be starting couples, can start. I certainly work with couples before they have kids, which you might think, What are you going to talk about with respect to parenting when you have no kids? Strike while the iron is cold. Couples, before they even kids can be thinking about how are we similar and different as a couple around money, around materialism? You and I had a conversation. If one member of the couple wants a 15-year-old used Honda Civic and the other one wants a yellow Lamborghini, it doesn't mean either one is right or wrong, but you need to have a discussion and talk about how you're going to present a united front to the kids around values. It can all be done, but it needs to be thoughtful.
Jeff Savlov
For couples to think about just purpose in life and values and how are they similar and how are they different with and I, not only to their successful marriage for hopefully decades to come, but when we do have kids, how are we going to be proactive and intentional in the earliest ages. When you can get couples that early, it really is much more simple than the later ages.
Kirby Rosplock
Well, and I can imagine even in the pre-children phase, couples might come from really different family backgrounds. And so even how one... Well, your side of the family thinks about raising kids might be different than his side of the family or her side of the family. And so, boy, I mean, even the grandchild question, shower them with a lot of love and a lot of gifts. And the other side is like, no, no, no, we don't give them anything. We're very austere, and we don't do anything like that, right? No, no, no, no, no, I can imagine even how two sides of two families might look at the Next Gen and what that relationship look like could be very different, right?
Jeff Savlov
Yeah. I just got introduced to a couple, you would probably know for sure one, if not both, through the entertainment world. And he grew up really incredibly poor, and she grew up in a very wealthy family. And they now have their own wealth. She has it from her family, and he's created it through his fame. You can imagine how different that must be. He's constantly afraid it's all going to disappear. She has $30,000 handbags, and her daughter is saying, Hey, 13 years old, I'm going to go out hanging out with my friends. Can I bring the whatever the name of the $30,000 handbag? I don't even know the name. Can I bring it with me? And without a sense of like, Do you realize that's a small car you're carrying with you? So, yeah, those kinds of differences, they need to be thought about. There's no easy answer, but coming together, talking about the similarities and differences, and then finding a way forward where you can be on the same page with what you're introducing to your kids.
Kirby Rosplock
Yeah. I mean, again, his closet, her closet. I can imagine right away, what are we thinking about? I know my daughters, I have two daughters, and I love shoes. So shoes are, again, like handbags. They can be very expensive. And it's one of those things, the material things that can be very cherished. And then there's, some folks just don't They're not important. So I can imagine that would be so important for couples to really understand how that's going to be forward or not forward, central in their lives and what that's going to look like and how those values are going to shape or how impressionable are they going to be when it comes to how they parent and what that looks like relating to their children.
Jeff Savlov
Yeah, exactly.
Kirby Rosplock
Well, let's talk a little bit more about those early days, because you talked about that it can start as early as one, two, and three. What does that look like?
Jeff Savlov
Yeah, again, it's really simple. I'll ask audiences of parents in families of generational wealth, Hey, what can you do with a two-year-old that's going to inherit $50 million when they turn 21? Just as an example. People are usually pretty stumped. The truth is the answer is much easier. People get too complicated. They're thinking about money. I don't know if they're picturing investment summaries, but It's really as simple as, and I'll show you in a minute, a video of a 15-month-old that really exemplifies this, but a one or two-year-old can put a napkin next to each plate at dinner. They can take each napkin and put it in the garbage at the end of dinner, or if they're cloth napkins, put it in the washing machine, even hit the start button on the washing machine. This is thrilling stuff for a one or two-year-old, starting a dishwasher or a washing machine. Not so thrilling for a 17-year-old who's never done it before. Try to get that going with a big smile on their face, but it's thrilling to a one or two-year-old. As they get a little bit older, the knives and forks and the plates can be set at the table and also put it to the dishwasher.
Jeff Savlov
A one-year-old has no idea. A newborn baby has no idea how the world works. A one-year-old has a little bit more, but it's really the world works the way you show them it works. If you show them we're all part of the family, we're all going to be involved in cooking and cleaning and setting the table and cleaning up, this is just the way the world works, and it's a matter of fact. It's very easy when you start that young.
Kirby Rosplock
Oh, that's so cool. Well, now you've got me curious. Tell me about this video you want to share with us.
Jeff Savlov
Yeah, let me show. This is somewhat famous. People watching may have actually seen this before it's made the rounds. It It's a 15-month-old, and you can see that?
Kirby Rosplock
Here we go. Yeah.
Jeff Savlov
And his family has a family business of water, cooler delivery, water and coolers, and this 15 months. Well, look at him. He is happily and energetically, and just walking is hard for the kid. He has to be careful getting up the little step, but he knows it's coming and he gets up. He turns around to check with mom. He's so young, he wants to make sure she's there, and then he knows what to do. He puts it up. And look, he doesn't just put it up. He pushes it into place, right? A lot of kids that age would never even do this. This kid puts it up on the shelf and then pushes it properly into place. He's into it. Now, watch what happens here. I love this part. Is this even poor and working class, let alone what all these families want? A child will voluntarily work hard and double their workload. This kid just voluntarily, on his own doubled his workload by grabbing two instead of one. That's tribe. That's determination. Now, he has trouble with one in each hand. What does he do? Throw a fit, throw a tantrum? No, He puts one down, and now he's doing one at a time.
Jeff Savlov
Again, a lot of kids would never do this much work if not exposed and given the opportunity. This kid has great frustration tolerance. When he had one in each hand and the first one was a little tricky, he just put one down and did one at a time. Now, he's a little stuck. It's just not going as smoothly as he hopes. But no tantrum. He looks over when he just can't get it himself and he knows that mom will back him up. She didn't help him too soon. She let him struggle, which is really important. A parent's job is not to make... And then he gives it his little push right into the proper place. A parent's job is not to make life as easy as possible. It's really to make sure that that child has the right amount of challenge. And this video exemplifies so much of what you could do. Again, 15 month old. He doesn't have much language and his walking is still being developed, but he's got a work ethic, he's got a drive. He doubled his workload. He didn't get frustrated and throw a tantrum. Why? Because he's been able to learn in his short life that things will be tough, but if I keep trying and keep pushing, I can find a way to figure it out and develop his own internal frustration tolerance.
Jeff Savlov
Then when he just couldn't get that last bottle, he looks at mom. She didn't help him too soon. She could have run over, Oh, no, he's struggling. No, she let him go. When it was at the point where he really needed some help, she shows up and gives him some help. All of that is just beautiful. There's a concept called optimal frustration from a famous psychoanalyst called Heinz Kohut. It's a great concept. It says that every child has an optimal level of frustration that will get them to grow. Not optimal gratification. He could have called it that, but he calls it optimal frustration. Children need frustration to push through and grow and learn. If you help them too much, if you make things too easy, they'll think, Oh, life's just easy. I don't have to ever try. And if you make it too hard, they'll just give up and think they'll never succeed. There's a balance in there, and that video shows the balance. And you can see so many of the values that are being instilled in this little guy: hard work, and determination and grit, all of that.
Kirby Rosplock
Oh, wow. I mean, I love that you just explained so much to all of us listening, watching, because many of us would have just said, Oh, that's such a cute video. Look at that cute toddler. Like, what an amazing It's an amazing little clip. But you explained it in a way that made it a lot more meaningful. So thank you for peeling back the onion and sharing so much more depth to that. Talk to us more about how that 15-month-old goes on to be a two or a three-year-old, and then that development changes. There's language now. Now we have a little bit more emotion, and that emotion turns into no, right? Because we know that word no is coming. What do we do with that developmental jump? And where can we take that new fround no and turn it into like, okay, there's more of that more independence, but I can use that to challenge them in new ways.
Jeff Savlov
It's not about making your little ones into robots as early as possible so that they're doing exactly what you want. All this stuff should be fun, and it can be fun. An example I like to talk about is my two boys got They're three years apart. So when they were two and five, and we have a company that mows the lawn and does the landscaping, but it doesn't mean that there aren't still things we can do. And so we went out there when the weeds were popping up through the beds and said, Okay, we're going to do this as a family. Let's go out and pull the weeds, which generally isn't super exciting to most human beings. But we took a bucket for me and my wife, a bucket for the two and five-year-old boys, and we said, Okay, Whoever can fill their bucket first gets to jump in the pool, and the other two have to sit for 10 minutes and watch the winners swim. It was a hot day. Of course, they got super excited. They wanted to make us sit in the chairs while they're swimming. Of course, we worked just hard enough so that they got their bucket filled a little bit before us, but they were actually excited and having fun picking weeds.
Jeff Savlov
They got to jump in the pool and laugh at us and splash at us as we looked sad sitting in the chairs. It was just a wonderful way to take something that could be an annoying chore, make it fun, have a sense of accomplishment, have some laughs along the way. It's just about being creative and finding ways as a family, not you go out and do this chore, Hey, let's do it together. It automatically grows. When it would snow out here in New Jersey, we would go out and they would have their snow suits on and their little kid shovels, and they'd probably put more snow on the driveway than they took off. But we were all out there doing it together. As the years went by, we had a snow one night, and my younger guy was 13, and I wake up in the morning and I hear this noise, and I'm like, What is that? I go to the window and look out, and he had seen the snow. He woke up first, and he went out by himself without being asked and just started shoveling the driveway. That's the transformation that can happen naturally if you say, Hey, we're in this together.
Jeff Savlov
We all chip in. We all going to work. You might have the opportunity to go out there first and take it without anybody telling you. It happens naturally when you just build it into the fabric of the family.
Kirby Rosplock
Well, that is a beautiful thing, especially when it comes to snow, because I know that not everybody wants to be the first one up to shovel, especially when there's a heavy, heavy snow. So good for your son, for sure.
Jeff Savlov
It's not like everything goes this smoothly, but my sons know what I do for a living, and they make me promise not to tell all of the ugly stories where things didn't go so well. So don't get the impression that everything goes this smoothly in the Savlov house. We have our moments of tension and stress and strain like any normal human family.
Kirby Rosplock
Yeah, no, for sure. Now, I I know I'm deviating here a little bit, but for the families where the parents maybe don't model as awesomely as Jeff, you and your wife do, how do you deal with the families that you see? I know you work with these families all the time where the parents are like, Okay, I'm not the perfect parent, and I don't model it, but I need my child or my children to step up, or I'm trying to make them more responsible or be better or more responsible or financially or whatever it is. How do you work on those situations? What advice are you giving those parents?
Jeff Savlov
I call it falling on the sword. I actually wrote a blog just a few months ago, which I'm happy to share, called Falling on the sword. Really, when that's the case, it's not the child's fault. The parents either instilled or didn't instill. What I suggest is some coaching with the parents around what did they do, what went well, what didn't go so well. Let's take a look at it and coach on how they can have a family meeting with the kids to say, Hey, guys, we wanted to sit you down and talk a little bit. There are ways in which we think we didn't do such a great job parenting. We think we made some mistakes and we gave you messages that weren't the right messages. We have some concerns about how our parenting has maybe led to situations for you guys that are not ideal for just growing up and being a person in the world. We apologize for letting you down. That's on us. But let's have a conversation about what we're seeing, what are the downsides we're seeing, and how we can come together as a family, have a conversation, maybe make some shifts that will be interesting to you because of the downsides of not making them.
Jeff Savlov
Let's talk about it and certainly Certainly having a professional walk a family through. It can be hard. Just having an outsider. This isn't a sales pitch for consultants and professionals, but just having someone who is not part of the family is already powerful and it's a different perspective. It can be hard for parents to parents to pull this off with the defensiveness and tension comes up. Either way, whether you can pull it off on your own or with help, there are ways to have this conversation. And I think it's so powerful for the parents to say, We made a mistake, let's talk about it. Instead of, This is what's wrong with you, and you need to fix it, right? Which feels better to hear?
Kirby Rosplock
Yeah. So Jeff, that might be a conversation you have with a later teen or a young adult child, not like a grade schooler. You're not having a little person conversation. That's a more mature, later teenager, more mature child we're talking about, right?
Jeff Savlov
Yeah. Were you interested in how to handle it with the younger child, that same situation?
Kirby Rosplock
Well, yeah, I don't know. What do you do when it is a little person?
Jeff Savlov
The younger they are, the easier it is. If you do the right thing starting young enough, they comply. If you do your part as a parent, they comply. Unless there's some organic brain-related thing where they simply can't comply. Really, if you do the right things young enough, it falls right into place. That's why I'm so passionate about trying to see parents start so early. Let's face it, I say this all the time, but 90% of what I'm talking about makes sense for poor and working class families. That 10% is that they don't have a safety net that can keep saving the next generation from the pain of their own mistakes. I'm all for pain and mistakes, mistakes and pain. The The safety net of that 10% can be harmful when it's too prevalent. But a lot of this stuff is just good basic parenting. Then there are ways to weave in the wealth piece starting at young ages, the wealth-specific 10% that doesn't apply to the born working class families. There are ways to do that, particularly through stories.
Kirby Rosplock
Well, let's go to that because you encourage parents to tell family enterprise stories. You mentioned something about a cookie factory or a lemonade stands without mentioning dollars. I think this is super cool, and you shared with me a little bit about this. How does that build curiosity and connect values to eventual wealth discussions? Can you go into Can you add a little bit more? Because I loved when you were talking about this prior. I thought this was amazing.
Jeff Savlov
Oh, thanks. Really, what I like to say is you can talk about family financial success without talking about money, and then you can talk about money without using numbers. Parents are usually terrified. Wealth creating parents are usually terrified about the money conversation. Great. Forget about money. Tell stories about, and not just the wealth creator, tell stories about everyone. Tell stories about a poor great grandfather who made it from another country by leaking on a boat and by shining shoes until he had enough money to rent an apartment and sleeping on whatever, cardboard on the street. Tell those stories so they know this is our family. We went through some hard times. That is not about wealth money, but it's about grit and determination, values, all of it, courage. So one of the stories, and this is a completely made up story, every time I tell it as an example, people start guessing names of famous cookie manufacturers. And this is completely made up But it comes from the kinds of stories that I tell with families. Imagine you have a big multibillion dollar cookie and biscuit company. With little kids, you could say, Hey, you know how we see grandma's cookies all over the place, and we see them in stores, and we know we've told you guys that grandma and grandpa started that?
Jeff Savlov
You guys should know, and we're talking about little kids here, you guys should know that they were pretty poor when they started that. They barely had enough money for food and clothes and the house that they lived in. Grandma started making the cookies and selling them to the neighbors because everybody liked them, and she realized she could make money, but they needed the money. It got so popular that she had neighbors helping her. Everyone where they lived back was in the same... It was a neighborhood where people were struggling just to get food and clothes and a place to live. They all needed extra money. As the cookies got popular, she had the neighbors come and help in her kitchen. As it grew, she had to get a big professional kitchen in a big building where lots of people could make them on big machines at once. It got bigger and bigger. Now they're all over the country in all the different states in the United States. Grandma always said, the Back from those early days, we have to take care of each other in our community. When we hire people to help us make money so we can have food and clothes and a place to live, we have to make sure we share the money we make with them, and we treat them well, and we give them rest during the day, and we give them days off when they're sick.
Jeff Savlov
That was all important to grandma. So this is more than just cookies. This is really grandma's way of taking care of the people who are around her and finding ways to help other people who don't have as much to have a better life. I didn't say anything about dollars and cents, but I'm telling a story that tells a little kid, Wow, this is cool. Our grandma is awesome, and we help people. It's just beautiful.
Kirby Rosplock
I love that. It's just such a powerful way to convey so much meaning about who your family is, the story that made you who you are. And again, it tells you about your history, your values, your culture, Sure. The ethos of what you're all about. And again, it doesn't have any bearing about your networth, like you're standing in your community, like your status, anything like that. But again- All those things are a side effect of just doing the right thing and making it through. It is. Let's shift now to jumping ahead to maybe elementary years and linking effort and allowance and the dreaded apps. I know families don't I don't really love to think about the fact that probably around this age, phones are being introduced. But then again, I think there are some cool technology features out there. I know in my household, I'm a little bit reliant on some tech apps to help me facilitate allowance. What are your thoughts about cash allowance versus apps and save spend jars versus using things like technology to facilitate allowances and piggy banks? I mean, what do you think about the different systems that are out there?
Jeff Savlov
Yeah, I probably need to go a little more in the direction of tech, just the way the world is. I feel like I start so young, before kids are born in those early years that the kids, when they are involved, are so young that they need the concrete nature of share, save, and spend banks with actual coins and dollars because it's Their minds are so concrete. But earlier and earlier, kids can understand and deal with that. You see like, newborns practically reaching for their parents' phone and they know how to swipe. It's crazy. So maybe I need to take a lesson from you. And I think you talked about Green light, was it? That you were using?
Kirby Rosplock
Yeah, I use that with my daughters, mainly because it has so many cool features, and I'm not any paid advertiser for it. So please, I looked at a whole bunch of apps, but this one for me just turned out to be the one that worked out the best. And it has a couple of cool features. It allows them to invest and allocate towards different styles of investing. And then it also allows them to allocate towards different types of goals, like savings goals. So they can save towards a college fund, or they could save towards a specific type of goal. They can actually earmark and name a goal. If they have a car fund if they're saving for a car or they're saving for a specific type of goal. So I really liked it because they can actually parts off when they get their allowance, and you can assign chores. So you can have different chores and tasks that are not part of their just weekly thing that they can check off when they complete them. And as a parent, you can see that they say they've completed them, and you can always be like, no, you didn't, push it back over.
Kirby Rosplock
So you can- The parental undo. Yes, you can do the parental undo on it. And so it does have a little thing that pops up on your phone, too, that connects to their phone as well. So I do like that It's really, really easy, and it's very streamlined. So they have done a nice job on there. Now, again, the dreaded fees, there are quite some hefty fees that are part of the convenience factor of it. So that would be the only thing I would say, take a look at that and make sure you can handle that convenience fee that goes along with it. But yeah, it is pretty accessible and easy, and I think they might be one of the leaders out there right now for those using it in the allowance space.
Jeff Savlov
Yeah. You have the tech option, especially with really little kids. I like the concrete nature of dollar bills and coins. I think sharing, saving, and spending It's pretty popular in the world that we're in working with wealth-creating families. Again, this applies to poor and working-class families, like so much of this does. Helping kids understanding if it's a family value to share, how do you do that? And not just saving money and then having mom and dad write a check and taking your little few dollars out of your to help the child maybe go to a soup kitchen and hand the $10 to somebody who's collecting, but then stay and prepare meals or do something related to really having their hands involved. I'm really a supporter of taking very young kids, explaining problems in the world, showing them how to save money, but then handing money to somebody related to it and then volunteering in the same way and making that impact. I think share and save and spend are really critical. As kids get older, really pushing them to pay for the things that they might want. I told you, our kids took them a while to get over this emotionally, but we had them buy their own smartphones when they were ready for a smartphone and then pay us $30 a month for data.
Jeff Savlov
I have to laugh a little bit. It sounds a little extreme, but when my older son was almost ready to graduate undergrad, he thanked us. Sometimes you do things as a parent where you're not getting thanked, maybe till college, maybe never. But this is one of those important things. If value in the family is, we're not just giving you money so you can sit on your butt, but we want you and we expect you to create your own money and save it and spend it and learn how to do it. Well, we're going to teach you. Bones don't come from nowhere. While none of their friends did anything like that, they did come to see that there was something useful when they're in college and all their friends are running out of money and asking mom and dad and aunts and uncles, and they knew how to deal with this stuff. We had them somehow, I I forget what the logistics were of getting them credit cards when they were 11 or 12. But there was a way to have a fixed amount of money that was our money, and we had to sign with them.
Jeff Savlov
But there was a way to get them a credit card and then have them be responsible. When do you use it? Use your money to pay it off. Teach them all that. And they felt it was cool. None of their friends had a credit card. They could go to whatever, McDonald's and ride their bikes and pay on their card. And their friends were like, What is this?
Kirby Rosplock
Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I will tell you, that is another feature that I do like about Green light, not to keep talking about Green light, but it does have a debit card feature. And so that is one feature that is cool, and I feel like it's maybe my equivalent to that is that they can see and know it gives them that credit card feature, too. And I love, too, the idea of service with young people, because I feel I feel like that gives them a real skin in the game feeling of being active and participatory, because sometimes, so much of the time, they see their parents, and they see every adults exchanging money, and in the transactions, and that happens above them or around them, but they're not part of it. But then when they're actually able to be part of whatever it is, like lunch in a backpack and stuffing food and making part of the organization of a soup kitchen or a food pantry or whatever community activity there is, it's so rewarding. Even as simple, we do a lot of like, Okay, it's time to clean out the closet. What doesn't fit?
Kirby Rosplock
What don't you wear? But you made me buy, and now you regret that you made me buy it, and now you never wear it. So we do a lot of like, Let's clean out the closet, and let's go donate it to Salvation Army or Goodwill, or whatever. Yeah, I love And that is, I think, as great as a service activity because it teaches your kids to be like, I don't use it. Somebody else will use it, and it will go to better use. This is a good piece of clothing that's gently worn. I mean, we throw away the stuff that's crap. But there's a lot of stuff that my youngest has tags on, literally never worn, and it's brand new. And I'm like, I could just resell it, but I'd rather honestly just donate it if somebody else can use it. So we do that a lot in our household. And I think they realize that we're like, no, let's make sure somebody else can use these items. So I love that, too.
Jeff Savlov
Yeah, really There's so much. And just get creative, right? The holidays can get so materialistic. So we're Jewish, and Hanukah has eight nights. And the American consumer-style Hanukah is eight nights of presents. Well, we did Giving night, getting night. Giving night, getting night. We alternated for giving and for getting. And on the giving nights, there's a dreadle. It's like a little top you spin, and there's a game for Hanukah. And basically, the winner gets to pick the social cause that we're going to give money to on those nights. On the other nights, we give presents. It's just integrating it in in all these creative ways so that they understand there's a giving and a getting in life. It's important not to forget the giving part. The other thing, if we have a quick minute for this, we really had our kids young volunteering, and they volunteered in Trenton. Now, we are white and Jewish, and where they were volunteering in Trenton was very religious, Christian, and almost completely people of color. I wanted them to not only be in a situation where people were struggling financially, but also to understand race is not what they see in their little town.
Jeff Savlov
Although we live in a pretty diverse town, they were the only white kids in this situation. I thought it was really useful, based on our values, for them to think about race differently. Imagine what it's like to be the only person of a certain skin color in a big group of people. They just were exposed to cultural things that they weren't naturally exposed to. They loved it. They made friends with the other counselors and the staff and the kids. It was really good to just be different people, different in lots of ways, and to have positive experiences. This was really moving and interesting to me when I said to my son who was there at that time, Hey, if we can work it out, would you want to invite some of the kids to come over and go swimming and barbecue and we can have a whole thing? He got quiet and I said, What's up? He's like, I just think it would be weird to show them a house like ours in a yard in a pool. It might make them feel bad. It was so sensitive. I felt like I was such an idiot.
Jeff Savlov
I felt like I was excited and I wanted to be generous, but he saw another level of it. This could actually show a contrast in a way that's painful. It was very empathic, and I was super proud of him, and not totally proud of myself, but glad that he thought of it. He saw an angle. I was coming from generosity, but he saw levels of compassion and complexity that really was the reason for it.
Kirby Rosplock
Yeah. Well, you know what? Good for him for being able to relate and understand the perspective of his peers at that age. I do really respect that this rising gen is different than our elder gen, that they really have a different complexity regardless of race, regardless of ethnicity, regardless of religious background. I know my daughter's in a choir, and they had all these different choirs from across the different counties come together, and they're all different races and ethnicities, and all the choirs are super, duper diverse. And I can totally relate to what you're talking about because her choir is relatively homogeneous, and they all look the same, and they're all the same religious background. But she was super psyched to hang out with this whole other choir that was super, duper diverse. And I mean, I could tell that she felt like everybody was looking at her with a couple of her girlfriends because they were learning some different dances and stuff for a YouTube. And stuff. And she immediately felt like, wait a minute, maybe I'm not supposed to be doing this. And then we talked about it afterwards that night, and she was just like, Mom, I really I don't see color.
Kirby Rosplock
I don't see that. I don't see any difference, but I immediately felt, and I think this is one of the things we were going to talk about, is just how sometimes that peer pressure, that community Sometimes when you're in these different social situations, it can be really intense for these young people growing up when they all of a sudden feel like, wait a minute, I want to act this way, but then I feel like everyone is looking at me like, You shouldn't be doing that, or like, That's not acceptable. Then all of a sudden, they have to decide, Am I going to try to go along and get along and just act like everything is normal, even though I don't really agree with this at all? Or do I speak my truth and stand up and really take on this situation and speak truth to this situation? Or do I hide, or do I try to pretend? And I think this is a really tough time when it comes to issues around materialism and wealth and class and all of this stuff. It's really Really, really tricky.
Jeff Savlov
Yeah. I'll talk with couples when kids are younger before they have kids, when there's significant family financial success. I like to say family financial success instead of family wealth, because family wealth has so much more than money, right? And so I say family financial success because I'm referring to the money in this one. But I'll talk about where do you live? Tell me something about the high school parking lot. It's the high school parking lot test. There are high school towns, where they're in very wealthy towns, financially successful towns, where the parking lot is filled with bicycles and used Hondas or whatever it might be, and kids are walking and bike riding and whatever. Then there are towns with similar socioeconomic levels where there's convertible Mustangs and Mercedes. Not to judge either one, but if one of those fits more into your values, maybe you want to choose a town that has levels of diversity and people who might have significant financial success are still living humbly. If that's your values or if it's to be with the convertible Mustangs, go that route. Although I think there are risks that come along with it. It can all be dealt with if you're open with your kids and have those conversations.
Jeff Savlov
But what's important to you? And does your town reflect your values? That takes down a lot of parents when they just didn't think about it. Now they're living in a town that does not reflect their values in terms of diversity, in terms of materialism, in terms of a lot of things that are important to them. That's really a big thing to think about.
Kirby Rosplock
I think it's incredibly challenging And I know even growing up, I went to a boarding school states away from where I grew up. And I always felt like I was hiding to some degree from the family background. I I came from. And then it was funny because then I was in a much more like, opulent and much more affluent school. And so I was like a nobody, right? I was just like, chump change compared to a lot of the young children of wealth and affluence and enterprise that I was in school with. And it was very telling because I thought I was like, I'm from a wealthy, enterprises family. I mean, I never said who I was, what family I was from, because I was hiding from that. But then I was really like a nobody. I do recall, this is a funny story, that one of the students I went to school with was literally the Prince of Bermuda. And he made this very grand gesture, and he said, Where I come from, we have white servants. He was an African-American gentleman. So it was very much a statement to tell me that I was like, I could be his servant.
Kirby Rosplock
And I was like, Well, thank you so much, nick. I'm glad to know that. But again, it was one of these moments of putting me in my place. I was like, Okay, well, I guess I could be. I mean, he was making fun. He was joking with me. But I mean, back to the peer pressure of some of these situations and growing up, it can be very intense. I think it is really difficult when you're parenting to help your child navigate. Some of these kinds of situations and how to find themselves and how to not get lost in the intensity of these moments.
Jeff Savlov
Yeah. And the conversations can happen much earlier than people think. Deep conversations really tricky and complex topics can happen at much younger ages than people realize. I mean, if there's any big takeaway from this, that's got to be one of them. You can talk to three and four-year-olds about things like race and class and hunger and homelessness and even political ideas. You can put it in terms that they can understand and they can start to be thoughtful and make decisions about how they want to live their lives and impact the world around them.
Kirby Rosplock
Yeah, for sure. Sure. I love that. Let's talk a little bit about a topic that you brought up that I thought was mind-blowing, but so right on. And that is that oftentimes people don't realize that the two ends of the spectrum, the folks that are at the one % of the pyramid, the super ultra wealthy, and those that are at the bottom of our pyramid, those that are barely getting by or not getting by in abject poverty, are actually struggling with very common similar challenges, especially on the parenting spectrum, and having issues with children who are dealing with motivation issues, maybe dealing with self-worth issues, maybe feeling struggling with entitlement issues. We are seeing similar parenting travails at these two spectrums. And what can we learn in general about relating to money and means, whether we have a lot of it or maybe when we have none of it.
Jeff Savlov
Yeah. I haven't written the book, but I have the title, which is Economic Extremes: Lessons I've Learned from America's Poorest and Wealthiest Families, because I have worked with both. I did some hard core work with homelessness and poverty in New Brunswick, New Jersey. And in my current role, I work with really wealthy families. And what I like to say is they have... One of the main things they have in common is the 800-pound gorilla of economic circumstance. They don't have the same amount of money, but when you label it generally economic circumstance, they both had this 800-pound gorilla, the very four families. It's constantly there. It's every day. How do we deal with this lack of financial resources? How do we develop kids who will be able to take what we have in our situation and use everything possible to get to a better place? Very wealthy families have a lot of money, but economic circumstance, it's in room every day? How do we take our kids who have excessive resources and we want them to be motivated? We want them to find their place in the world. We want them to struggle and fail and try again and succeed and do it on their own without helping them too much.
Jeff Savlov
When you think of it in terms of economic circumstance, there's actually a good bit of what they have is in common.
Kirby Rosplock
All right. It's that time of the podcast that I have to get to my lightning round. I'm going to ask a couple of one-liners and just respond to me with a pithy response. One toddler task every household can try this week.
Jeff Savlov
So get a plant, a plant that starts small but could really go for 30 years and start with that tiny little plant, have a calendar. I like, again, not tech, but old school, a calendar that you can hang on the wall and put a W for every day it should be watered and have the kid every night cross off each day. If there's no water, cross it off without water. If it's a water day, have them water the plant and then cross off the day. That can go for years and plants can get I have a 30-year-old plant from when I was in my 20s that is so meaningful to me. I wasn't a toddler when I started it. But this is a way to give them responsibility. If they don't do it, the plant will die. Better than killing a dog or a human, it's a plant. So it's a good way to practice. Killing dogs and humans is really not an appropriate way to learn in my world. But in all seriousness, there's a consequence if they don't do it, which is their plant dies. And if they do do it well, especially if it's a plant that can grow and grow and grow, it's an absolute And they'll take it to college with them and have it for a long time.
Jeff Savlov
It's really a beautiful way to show responsibility with consequences.
Kirby Rosplock
I love it. Okay. A book, article, or podcast you gift most often to parents?
Jeff Savlov
So it's not particularly money-related at all, but it's "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk." I need to cheat because I always forget the names. Adele FabEr and Elaine Mazlish. And it's just a really wonderful book to help parents understand what's a great way to talk so we hear each other.
Kirby Rosplock
So good. Your personal money message mantra in one sentence.
Jeff Savlov
I said it already, but it's definitely talk about family financial success without mentioning money and then talk about money without using numbers. It's just to remember that when you're terrified about talking about family wealth, that you can just start off with stories and not even mention money. Then when you get to money, you don't have to use the numbers. Then when everybody feels comfortable and prepared, you can start to throw some numbers in there. But it gives you some really good solid steps to start.
Kirby Rosplock
Who modeled work ethic for you growing up and what did they do?
Jeff Savlov
Both my parents, before my dad started the business and had his success, it was blue collar. It was one soda, three straws for me and my two sisters, and a cheeseburger each. My dad, when he worked for other people, he would have the flu and just go to work. Nothing stopped him. You go to work no matter what. This wasn't his own business, it was somebody else. Mom, the older I get, the more I respect. She was a stay at home mom. Then she went back to work. But when she went back to work, she still did laundry, did lunches, cleaned the house. We were probably in college before she hired someone to help while she was working, and she cleaned it. It was unbelievable. So the older I get, and I see how much goes into it, I don't know how she pulled that off. And I'm seeing her in about an hour for dinner, and I'll let her know that I brought this up. She doesn't know how she pulled it up. She looks back and she's like, If I could go back, your dad would be doing a lot more cooking and laundry.
Kirby Rosplock
That's awesome. All right, last but not least, finish this sentence. Wealth when stewarded wealth, should...
Jeff Savlov
Should serve principles, purpose, and passion.
Kirby Rosplock
Beautiful. All right. Thank you, Jeff. You are so incredibly enlightening. And I loved having you today on the Tamarind Learning podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like this episode and subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, or YouTube. Share it with your friends on social media, and make sure to check out Jeff's firm, Blum & Savlov, and we'll have links to his website. You can also find the link to the 15-month-old warehouse helper video. We're going to have that, too. We'll also have some more information about Greenlight or Busy Kid and maybe some other allowance tracking resources if you're curious. Jeff has some amazing resources as well, so we'll probably have another one of his great papers or some other resources from him because he's a luminary and he's done so much thought leadership. Jeff, again, I can't thank you enough. You have just given us some great wisdom on some intentional parenting ideas here today, from the itty-bitty, like that, 15-month-old all the way on up. So I can't thank you enough.
Jeff Savlov
Thanks, Kirby. It was a lot of fun to chat with you. So thanks for having me.
